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jacxxx
Beginner Angel
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ult_combo: I'll pass the border idea to Sat ... Would be nice if it could be implemented together with some other minor UI improvements. One of these little improvements might be the following - it's why I bump this item up.
In http://lah.li/2141/seven-story-of-csenge-prologue-2/?page=29#321194 , I tried to use the new expand/shrink function as good as I can. I am afraid that most vistors - being not acquaintedwill not click on the Expand button but on the text next to it. I did it myself a couple of times while checking the preview. Request: make the whole line (expand button + summary) clickable.
_________________ My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by arrancar85 |
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Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:08 pm |
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ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Posts: 86
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That's not a bad idea. Just a couple things we have to consider.
In sites which use similar approaches, it is rather annoying to just select and copy the text instead of opening the spoiler. I guess, to take that in account, starting a selection should cancel the click action.
There's a corner case to consider, when a link is inside the spoiler title. E.g.:
Then it is unclear which action clicking the link will trigger with your proposed feature. By default, it'd both open the link and expand the spoiler, one of which is probably unintended by the user. An option is to open the link and don't open the spoiler, or the other way around. But none of these seem very intuitive.
And there are other specifics to consider as well. Once the spoiler is open, should the whole title stay as a "shrink/expand" toggle, or the title should serve only to expand and not shrink after it is expanded (similar to youtube's descriptions' expand system). That meaning could be conveyed by having a "pointer" (hand) cursor while hovering the spoiler title in shrunk mode.
There's probably more to consider.
_________________ My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.
There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art. |
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:02 am |
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jacxxx
Beginner Angel
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I just received a pm of a rather non-technically inclined fellow member (an old classmate of mine) who said about http://lah.li/2141/seven-story-of-csenge-prologue-2/?page=29#321194 : "I couldn't open the link where your post said "expand", it wouldn't expand for me."
This clearly indicates: KISS
I think most users intuitively will click to the right of the expand (shrink) button to expand (shrink), not to do other things.
_________________ My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by arrancar85 |
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:56 am |
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ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Yeah, sure. Still need feedback on the topics I've mentioned in my previous post before we can consider implementation.
We're currently considering to move the button to the right of the text, this way it doesn't break the reading flow.
_________________ My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.
There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art. |
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:13 pm |
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jacxxx
Beginner Angel
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Posts: 14
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ult_combo: We're currently considering to move the button to the right of the text, this way it doesn't break the reading flow. I prefer to use the commands "expand" and "shrink" in line with the reading flow (I did that in http://lah.li/p/319991 and http://lah.li/p/321194 , in the reversed order the flow doesn't feel good anymore). Also, I think people will now click to the left of the expand/shrink button.
ult_combo: Still need feedback on the topics I've mentioned in my previous post I can't think of a realistic example to use a link in the summary field, i.m.o. you either expand or refer, not both. But suppose someone did both, then in the example the fact that the links change color on hovering suggests to me that on clicking it while hovered I'm going to the corresponding link address. In the same way I would suppose the expansion starts when I see the block with the expand-button and summary highlighted and in that situation I click it. I probably would be surprised when clicking on the first link expansion and jumping to the new url happens at the same time, but I would understand that this is part of the game.
I would expect the expanded block to be shrunk only when I hit the shrink button. I don't understand your "pointer" idea.
_________________ My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by arrancar85 |
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Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:24 pm |
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ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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It was an unanimous decision from the UI, UX and developer teams to move the button to the right.
jacxxx: Also, I think people will now click to the left of the expand/shrink button. How so? The user will first read the summary, then be presented the choice to expand such content. That's correct logical order of things -- read, think, do action.
The button was placed on the left initially only for the sake of aligning the spoiler buttons on the Y-axis, but that doesn't pay off the UX benefit of having the button on the right, as explained above.
As for the whole title box serving as a trigger, the feedback from the development teams was mostly bad -- it is more likely to break and overcomplicate things than fix. Hence, the spoiler buttons will stay like this for now. It may be reconsidered in the future.
---
Also, back to your previously linked post's spoiler, the underline effect may give a false clue of clickable trigger (as it is usually used for links), and I wouldn't recommend using a font size smaller than the current default size (12) -- from an accessibility and usability viewpoint, our current default font size is rendered relatively small on the most common desktop and mobile resolutions.
_________________ My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.
There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art. |
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Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:32 am |
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jacxxx
Beginner Angel
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Posts: 14
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As this is also a test forum - to me testing is a kind of playing, please don’t take everything deadly serious - I’m making a list containing various components:
- Looking e.g. at the layout of the first post with Expand buttons ever http://lah.li/p/318335 you don’t see any button unless you hover it.
Wanted: clearly visible, attractive buttons.
- I’m working with a German keyboard now, it’s difficult to type
| | [*] | -->
- please insert the [ * ] as symbol in the set of edit buttons
- the explanation of this tag in the field above the edit window could teach posters how to make lists
ult_combo: It was an unanimous decision from the UI, UX and developer teams to move the button to the right. Sure it must be the right decision
ult_combo: jacxxx: Also, I think people will now click to the left of the expand/shrink button. How so? The user will first read the summary, then be presented the choice to expand such content. That's correct logical order of things -- read, think, do action. . The logical action may be to click what has to be expanded – especially when you don’t see a button.
ult_combo: As for the whole title box serving as a trigger, the feedback from the development teams was mostly bad -- it is more likely to break and overcomplicate things than fix. Hence, the spoiler buttons will stay like this for now. It may be reconsidered in the future. . Ok.
Q: do you also work with formal specs, saying e.g. what is allowed in the title field? How many lines, characters?
ult_combo: Also, back to your previously linked post's spoiler, the underline effect may give a false clue of clickable trigger (as it is usually used for links), and I wouldn't recommend using a font size smaller than the current default size (12) -- from an accessibility and usability viewpoint, our current default font size is rendered relatively small on the most common desktop and mobile resolutions. I changed it as you advise. The underline was intended primarily as a kind of separation between permanent title and new info that appears/disappears when you hit the expand/shrink button.
- inserting more indexes like AA in http://lah.li/p/318031 still works ok?
- Title chapter 1
- text 1.1
- text 1.2
- Title subchapter 1.2
- text 1.2.1
- Title subsubchapter 1.2.1
- text 1.2.1.1
- text 1.2.1.2
- text 1.2.1.3
- Title subsubchapter 1.2.2
- text 1.2.2.1
- text 1.2.2.2
- text 1.2.2
- text 1.2.3
- Title subchapter 2.2
- text 1.3
- Title chapter 2
the layout of this list is good enough
_________________ My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by arrancar85 |
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Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:18 am |
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ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Posts: 86
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jacxxx: please insert the [ * ] as symbol in the set of edit buttons
the explanation of this tag in the field above the edit window could teach posters how to make lists
Yeah, the list explanation in the editor is rather poor at the moment. Though lists aren't that popular either.
jacxxx: Q: do you also work with formal specs, saying e.g. what is allowed in the title field? How many lines, characters? Well, I was actually expecting you to have tested every possible thing with the spoiler titles when I implemented them.
The spoiler title rules are simple really -- there is no line or character limit, and you can use most of the BBCode tags. While in the concept phase, I've decided that the spoiler title requires quotes around it so that the spoiler title's closing token is a double quote followed by a closing square bracket, instead of just a closing square bracket. This allows the usage of basically all BBCode tags inside of the title, except quotes with username and spoilers with title -- since those would require nesting the double quotes + closing square bracket sequence, and nesting is not quite well supported due to the way phpbb's bbcode parsing works.
Simpler rules are easier to maintain, so no need to overcomplicate it there.
Anyway, I'm considering to implement Markdown as an alternative to BBCode, as it is far easier and more practical for humans to write. For example, to make a nested list with markdown:
| | - unordered list item
- another unordered list item
1. nested ordered list item
1. can use any number, the rendered output auto-updates according to the number of ordered items
* can use either asterisk or dash at beginning of line to create an unordered list item,
* it doesn't make a difference
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Of course, we'd still need to add our word filter and other addons on top of that, so it isn't as easily implementable as it seems. And I believe people who want to give markdown a try would want a phpbb-to-markdown conversion option, as having both markup languages enabled for a given post wouldn't play very well -- BBCode is already notorious for generating invalid markup, if we implement markdown it will be a fresh start with proper sanitizing. Of course, markdown is just an idea, still needs many concepts before it is even properly proposed.
Not sure what you mean, why wouldn't it work?
_________________ My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.
There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art. |
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Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:52 pm |
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jacxxx
Beginner Angel
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Posts: 14
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Bye Bye BBCode, Markdown Please Enter ! |
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ult_combo:
jacxxx: please insert the [ * ] as symbol in the set of edit buttons
the explanation of this tag in the field above the edit window could teach posters how to make lists
Yeah, the list explanation in the editor is rather poor at the moment. Though lists aren't that popular either. Forget it Ult, don' waste your time with BBCode anymore
ult_combo:
jacxxx: Q: do you also work with formal specs, saying e.g. what is allowed in the title field? How many lines, characters? The spoiler title rules are simple really ... Thanks for the specs, Ult. I think the spoiler/details feature is not yet implemented in hxxp://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax .
When you implement Markdown on LAH, I'll ask Uncle John Gruber to implement features like these in Markdown.
ult_combo: Anyway, I'm considering to implement Markdown as an alternative to BBCode, as it is far easier and more practical ... I didn't know Markdown (thought you were fooling me), but I checked --> it's there since 2004 ( cf hxxp://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ ). It's great, why isn't it implemented here a long time ago?
ult_combo: Of course, we'd still need to add our word filter and other addons on top of that, so it isn't as easily implementable as it seems. I#m afraid I can't ask that to Uncle John
ult_combo: And I believe people who want to give markdown a try would want a phpbb-to-markdown conversion option, as having both markup languages enabled for a given post wouldn't play very well ... It seems to me that e.g. toggling Options "BBCode is ON --> OFF" and "Markdown is OFF --> ON" would be necessary and sufficient.
- Q: Markdown incorporates straight html when features are not implemented, e.g. when you want to make a table (sometimes I would like to do more than just creating simple lists). Our Option "HTML is OFF" always bothered me: why can't it be switched on?
_________________ My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by arrancar85 |
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Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:49 am |
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ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Yeah, Markdown has become much more popular in the past few years, there are various Markdown implementations nowadays with some extra features that weren't in the initial spec. And it is not like we can't implement new features on it by ourselves, it just takes time and effort to do things properly and safely.
jacxxx: why isn't it implemented here a long time ago? Lack of interest mainly, I'd say. People are usually used to writing BBCode on phpBB boards, but it might be worth providing the option to write Markdown as well. People who use Reddit, Github or the Stack Exchange sites should be more used to Markdown than BBCode.
jacxxx: It seems to me that e.g. toggling Options "BBCode is ON --> OFF" and "Markdown is OFF --> ON" would be necessary and sufficient. Yeah, but there are certain board features that require some extra effort. E.g. when you click the "quote" button in the top right of a post or make a Quick Reply with the "Quote Last Post" option checked, it inserts a BBCode [ quote ] on your post. That is one of the things we have to make work for both BBCode and Markdown -- e.g. we can provide a syntax choice in the quick reply sidebar, and for "quote" button we can insert the quote in the user's preferred syntax (which should be a new profile option). In that case, it is still not easy to convert the quote syntax (and other general syntax) BBCode <--> Markdown, and I believe it'd be a nice option to be able to override your preferred syntax in a per-post basis (like it can be done for basically every other option).
jacxxx: Our Option "HTML is OFF" always bothered me: why can't it be switched on? Security. If we allowed unrestricted HTML, it'd be a breeze for anyone to inject malware in LAH and even steal your data. You can read a bit about XSS for more info, and it it worth noting that even Twitter's Tweetdeck was just compromised by a code injection (XSS) security flaw yesterday.
It is technically possible to allow a very limited subset of HTML tags and attributes while staying safe, but that requires rigorous sanitizing. HTML is extremely easy to mangle up in order to avoid validation checks and sanitizing, hence no single person can write a proper HTML sanitizer. Even the most famous and utilized sanitizers such as HTML Purifier have been compromised by lesser know exploits such as mXSS.
So yes, taking our users' security in the first place, it is better to stay with HTML disabled for the time being.
To implement Markdown effectively, we need a proper Markdown editor -- although Markdown is easy to type by hand, many people prefer to use an editor toolbar for formatting, it also allows new markdown users to use it without reading about the syntax previously --, live preview, a proper HTML sanitizer (if we're going to allow some HTML tags), mechanisms to switch between the BBCode and Markdown syntaxes, and we also need to adapt our features to work with Markdown as well (the built-in quote system, smilies, word filter, new features such as spoilers, etc). So yes, this isn't the highest of our priorities at the moment, and still requires a lot of planning before even thinking about implementation.
_________________ My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.
There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art. |
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Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:16 pm |
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jacxxx
Beginner Angel
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Posts: 14
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Today I noticed two peculiar things related to the spoiler functions. These peculiarities are:
- opening an old spoiler with a large amount of text I wanted to close that spoiler and in the first instance I was looking for a hide button on the upper right hand side of the spoiler block
Wouldn't be that the right position, according to the unanimous decision of the UI, UX and Developer teams
In other words: shouldn't the shrink button be always positioned on the r.h.s. of the block?
- After editing two adjacent posts ( 1st post = http://lah.li/2496/bondage-and-forced/?page=43#248102 and 2nd post = http://lah.li/2496/bondage-and-forced/?page=43#248103 , I refered those in http://lah.li/582/loli-pic-you-find-the-hottest/?page=53#321685 ) it appeared to me at first that the expand button in the first post was completely invisible, but that the spoiler button in the second post was quite clear. (edit: I just changed the spoiler in the 2nd post into an expand)
My 1st conclusion was: the expand and spoiler buttons have different appearance. But looking better I then thought that when I look at such a button at a right angle it is practically invisable (black on black), but when I look at it say at 45 degrees, it is clearly visible (black on gray). (edit: Right now I think it has to do with the background getting lighter on each screenview).
Solution: use different colour and or appearance for button and or background?
little tests
- empty expand content works? Preview --> yes
- empty expand title works? Preview --> yes
- all empty works? Preview --> yes
- nesting expands in contents works?
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