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ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Post Re: Boxed attachment viewing Quote
jacxxx:
--> right you are! never noticed it in my Opera but it does Embarassed ...
Took me a while to notice it the first time too. Razz

jacxxx:
--> perhaps the same drawback with "dynamic paging" with page break always at about +/- 0.5 page?
Not bad idea, we've been thinking about streamlining the posting interface e.g. open the full editor in the same page as a modal maybe, and load the post at the end of the thread without reloading the page. Of course, it'd have to fetch any posts in between that. It's not a very simple thing and is second to other projects that are on concept already, but it's something that we can think about. Razz

I've also thought about real time updates, as in, posted stuff after the last post in a thread -- it could be useful for discussion topics and lazy viewing/leeching, but real time updates don't really fit a forum IMO (let alone the server resources to run that 24/7 sending data).

jacxxx:
Thank you again, ult.
No prob. Very Happy


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Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
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Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:43 pm Profile PM MSN Skype
Sat
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Post Quote
There were onscreen controls but I disabled them to focus more on the image content.

As for image display over multiple pages, it would put a terrible strain on the server.


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Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:00 pm Profile PM WWW Skype
jacxxx
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Post Quote
Lately I'm using the Boxed attachment view browsing utility with the right arrow on the keyboard quite frequently. It's very satisfactory, but sometimes I have to wait for an unexpectedly long time while nothing happens.

First reason: it happens to be the last pic of the page. A little text (like "last attachment") would be very helpful. So I'm not talking about controls, these could be very annoying indeed, but only a text appearing on the last (and first) pic of the page.

Second reason: it happens when the attachment is rather big. As a recent example consider A's post of Saturday Oct 13, 2012 02:06 here --> http://lah.li/forum/viewtopic.php?p=283751#283751. Pics #3, #4 and #5 are perfectly suited for a "right arrowed boxed attachment view". To open the boxed view of #3 now takes about 5 seconds on my old lahtop. Typing then the right arrow it again takes 5 seconds for #4 to open, but during these 5 seconds I can still enjoy the view of #3. For these pics (about 1,5 MB) I better use the "open separately" option. Now it still takes about 5 seconds to open completely, but it starts showing the picture gradually builing up from top to bottom right away. So the first second I can study in the example of pic #3 the girl's face, the second second her breasts, the third her belly, the fourth her crotch, ...
Q: Couldn't you implement this last screen buildup for the boxed view too?

PS: a useful alternative would be an added functionality to the "open separately" full screen, e.g. going to the next full screen pic using the keyboard right arrow (right now I can only zoom in this view)


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Last edited by jacxxx on Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:14 pm Profile PM
ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Post Quote
The first and last message may be considered, however if you just scroll down/up (with the mouse wheel or touchpad's scroll) as you load the images, you should notice the end/start of the pages naturally. Also the next/previous page links will be near as well. Razz

Now about the load times there isn't much to be done. The time which the attachments take to load is directly proportional to your connection speed, that is, the plan you pay to your ISP.

jacxxx:
Q: Couldn't you implement this last screen buildup for the boxed view too?
I'd leave this one to Sat to answer, but I'll add some of my thoughts:
1. That is not the way the plugin was designed to work. Blocking the screen with a partial image that hasn't even loaded looks like very poor design as well, so that even dlsite puts a loading screen while the image loads.
2. Seeing partial images being loaded is something that most people don't experience since the 90's dial-up, and we have enough people complaining that the site looks like the 2000's so I wouldn't force the 90's image loading down their throats. Maybe as an optional setting when we upgrade it.

The plugin has a pre-caching option, but Sat disabled it as we have way too many images per thread page and pre-caching all of those for every user that loads a page would generate too much server stress & slower loading to the users.


_________________
My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.



There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art.
Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:57 pm Profile PM MSN Skype
jacxxx
Earth Angel
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Post Quote
I just added a PS which crossed your answer, Ult.
ult_combo:
The first and last message may be considered, however if you just scroll down/up (with the mouse wheel or touchpad's scroll) ---> Right now I don't have these controls! I'll check it later on another PC as you load the images, you should notice the end/start of the pages naturally. --> unfortunately not Also the next/previous page links will be near as well. Razz

Now about the load times there isn't much to be done. The time which the attachments take to load is directly proportional to your connection speed, that is, the plan you pay to your ISP.

The plugin has a pre-caching option, but Sat disabled it as we have way too many images per thread page and pre-caching all of those for every user that loads a page would generate too much server stress & slower loading to the users.--> that's clear, I understand it. But how about the screen building up gradually?
Thanks for your fast answer, Ult. I have to use quite an old set of hardware, but most of the time it works - as I said - quite satisfactory.

Eh.. with big attachments the screen buildup of the "open separately" is much more satisfactory than that of the boxed view, but the browse facility of the boxed view is much more statisfactory when the attachments are reasonably small ... That's why I PS'ed my previous post.


_________________
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Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:18 pm Profile PM
ult_combo
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Post Quote
Well yes, guess I have to write how/why these work first, so here it goes.

When you click to open an image separately, what you're doing is simply requesting to load an image file in another tab/window.
It may look like not just a simple image due to the ".php" extension and query parameters, but in fact, what your browser receives IS a simple image. The .php is there to prevent other sites from hotlinking to the image, as well as increasing its view count and other minor stuff. But once it's all processed, the server sends a regular image file to be displayed in your browser - you can check that by opening any image from your linked thread and checking up the response headers in any developer tool such as Firefox's Firebug, Chrome's Developer Tools or Opera Dragonfly, for instance this image returns an "image/jpeg" Content Type response header. The important part to know is that it simply loads an image, exactly as if you clicked to open a .jpg image in a new tab.

Now how do browsers behave when you ask them to open an image (or any web page)? They start rendering as soon as they have enough data to be able to display something. That's how your gradual rendering works, modern browsers are default to render data as soon as they can and gradually render the image or web page 'til it is done loading (as a side note, this may not happen to the LAH posts' structure rendering because the current design template utilizes tables which by W3C spec halts rendering until the last row has been received, but that's off-topic for now).

So now that you know that opening an image separately loads a regular image and browsers render data as soon as they can render it into something, you know how and why the gradual loading works. It's time to explain about LAH's current attachment viewing.

As you probably know by now, we currently use a third-party plugin for the "boxed attachments viewing". As many other lightbox plugins, it waits until the image is loaded before displaying it. I've listed some of the pro's above, but one important point (at least for me) is that it won't block the page until the image is loaded, that is, you can still browse, read, view other thumbnails while the image loads and it will be displayed to you as soon as it is loaded.

So yes, forcing this into all users isn't something viable. It might be something to look into when we upgrade the boxed viewing interface, by adding an optional setting. I've just finished rewriting the whole styled checkbox/radio buttons' JS because it wasn't up to LAH-JS standards (you can see that now you can toggle them by clicking in their label texts, also the caching has been made bulletproof, the download speed has been improved not only in size but also wiped out 4 http requests, and power users can submit forms by pressing Enter while having them focused which wasn't possible before [and still allows to toggle them with the space bar], that is, it saves one Tab keypress in the login screen when you fill in the name, pass and toggle the box with keyboard-only), but well yeah, the boxed attachment viewing currently uses a highly respected (and paid) 3rd party plugin, so I dim it standards enough to stay without any editing. However, now that LAH disposes of some new technologies, it wouldn't be much of a problem to improve, replace or rewrite it completely.

You know the priority decisions rely on Sat, and as I said this surely won't be forced down to everyone (an optional setting, maybe), possibly after we upgrade the boxed attach viewing which is not even in the plans.


_________________
My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.



There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art.
Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:34 pm Profile PM MSN Skype
jacxxx
Earth Angel
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Post Quote
Thanks again for your incredible patience explaining these things that must be very trivial to you.
ult_combo:
The first and last message may be considered, however if you just scroll down/up (with the mouse wheel or touchpad's scroll) ---> Right now I don't have these controls! I'll check it later on another PC as you load the images, you should notice the end/start of the pages naturally. --> unfortunately not Also the next/previous page links will be near as well. Razz
I checked and now I agree with you. It appears that now the box of the last pic vanishes after hitting the right keyboard arrow again, a new feature: previously you could hit the right arrow a number of times while nothing changed, you kept on seeing the the box view of the last pic of the page. I guess that's because of your updates? Very Happy Edit 23:22: No, I was very wrong here. I just did it again: after entering the right arrow key the last pic vanishes, after which I'm waiting for quite some seconds until I realize it's the last one Embarassed
Eh ... "scrolling down" with the keyboard down arrow while browsing using the right arrow is a complete disaster ...Edit 23:22: it does work ofc after the last pic vanishes Embarassed
ult_combo:
When you click to open an image separately, what you're doing is simply requesting to load an image file in another tab/window. It may look like not just a simple image due to the ".php" extension and query parameters, but in fact, what your browser receives IS a simple image. The .php is there to prevent other sites from hotlinking to the image, as well as increasing its view count and other minor stuff. But once it's all processed, the server sends a regular image file to be displayed in your browser - you can check that by opening any image from your linked thread and checking up the response headers in any developer tool such as ... Chrome's Developer Tools ... , for instance this image returns an "image/jpeg" Content Type response header. The important part to know is that it simply loads an image, exactly as if you clicked to open a .jpg image in a new tab.
I'm used to copy and paste image addresses such as http://lah.li/forum/download.php?id=211900 . When I'm using Opera I sometimes use a url-incrementing tool; now I realize that I could have used this to view the series ... 211900, 211899 and 211898 in a nice way. Right now I'm using Chrome - though it's getting slower and slower until the BSOD + hard restart will appear again - Chrome doesn't seem to have such a useful decrementer.

In your image example I see "<img style="-webkit-user-select: none; cursor: -webkit-zoom-in; " src="http://lah.li/forum/download.php?id=211900" width="279" height="420">" all right. Very interesting!

ult_combo:
... well yeah, the boxed attachment viewing currently uses a highly respected (and paid) 3rd party plugin, so I dim it standards enough to stay without any editing. However, now that LAH disposes of some new technologies, it wouldn't be much of a problem to improve, replace or rewrite it completely.

You know the priority decisions rely on Sat, and as I said this surely won't be forced down to everyone (an optional setting, maybe), possibly after we upgrade the boxed attach viewing which is not even in the plans.
I can live without it for a long time - glad to know a bit more of the status. In the meantime I'll take better notice of the image buildup behaviour on other sites. I think that any site has developers who themselves are used to very fast hardware and internet connections, and may have some difficulty appreciating that some users are very slow in all respects Smile


_________________
My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by Arrancar85 In Love
Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:46 pm Profile PM
ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Post Quote
jacxxx:
In your image example I see "<img style="-webkit-user-select: none; cursor: -webkit-zoom-in; " src="http://lah.li/forum/download.php?id=211900" width="279" height="420">" all right. Very interesting!
Actually I meant this panel (the attached pic), the rest you saw in the Elements part is added automatically by the browser to display the image as a webpage (the zoom cursor and functionality is all default to the browser). Razz But it's pretty interesting yeah.

jacxxx:
I can live without it for a long time - glad to know a bit more of the status. In the meantime I'll take better notice of the image buildup behaviour on other sites. I think that any site has developers who themselves are used to very fast hardware and internet connections, and may have some difficulty appreciating that some users are very slow in all respects Smile
Yeah, seems like the vast majority of lightbox developers seem to follow the "load first, then display" pattern, for example, here are 10 plugins with demos (you can see how they work by clicking the "View Demo" button and browsing to their Examples section, some of the plugin links are broken but there are enough working ones to get the idea) that could be easily implemented on LAH, all of which either have a fullscreen "loading" overlay or pre-caching. There are literally hundreds of plugins for that functionality and it isn't a problem to code one specifically for LAH, but in the end all of them boil down to the same functionality with a slightly different loading image/overlay background and border/show and hide effect.


_________________
My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.



There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art.
Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:11 am Profile PM MSN Skype
jacxxx
Earth Angel
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Post Quote
ult_combo:
jacxxx:
In your image example I see ...
Actually I meant this panel (the attached pic) ...
yes, your panel is much more interesting, thanks for mentioning it. In this panel you left out - on purpose? - the most interesting part, (my attached panel below). I don't understand the "timeline" completely, but the "receiving time" (6.15 s) first appeared to me quite a bit too long. Then I realized that a 1.5 MB pic is much too refined for my small lahtop screen to see any refined details (in principle I think 0.3 MB is more than enough). So after a few seconds the sender keeps on sending extra information without actually improving the view on my screen anymore!
--> In principle - and especially with boxed attachment viewing - the pic could stop loading after sending at most 0.3 MB necessary and sufficient information, corresponding to a theoretical receiving time of less than 2 s, a huge improvement!

Also, when browsing the lah-pics in boxed attachment view using the keyboard right arrow, every time I hit the right arrow the previous picture immediately disappears and I'll have to wait a variable time (when it's more than about 5 seconds I begin to assume it was the last pic of the page Surprised) until the next picture pops up. In the meantime I can't do anything else than watch the part of the screen where I started my gallery browsing session.
--> It would be very nice when the previous pic would not disappear until the next pic shows up. In that case I can hit the right arrow as soon as a new pic shows up and enjoy it while the next one is loading (or till the end of time when it is the last pic of the page Laughing).

ult_combo:
... seems like the vast majority of lightbox developers seem to follow the "load first, then display" pattern, for example, here are 10 plugins with demos (you can see how they work by clicking the "View Demo" button and browsing to their Examples section, some of the plugin links are broken but there are enough working ones to get the idea) that could be easily implemented on LAH, all of which either have a fullscreen "loading" overlay or pre-caching. There are literally hundreds of plugins for that functionality and it isn't a problem to code one specifically for LAH, but in the end all of them boil down to the same functionality with a slightly different loading image/overlay background and border/show and hide effect.
With my old lahtop I notice big differences between the demo's of your "10 plugins with demos" (there are 12 plugin demo's in this link, 4 of them don't work/exist anymore.) One of the demo's is much better than all the others. I rated it +++ for low receiving time - even for bigger pics -, no annoying break between adjacent pics and for smartness/ ease of the controls. 2 others got - - +, the rest - - - .

So when you ask me, I'd choose for the +++ Fancy box extended with the button helper Very Happy


_________________
My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by Arrancar85 In Love
Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:22 am Profile PM
ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Post Quote
jacxxx:
... is much more interesting, thanks for mentioning it. In this panel you left out - on purpose? - the most interesting part, (my attached panel below).
What purpose is there to leave it out? I may have left it out to let you find it out by yourself, but it doesn't really add anything that we didn't know. The image has a relatively large filesize - Check. It takes longer to download than others images - Check. But if you really insist, I've attached a new pic with that panel, shown from my not-very-fast and routed connection.

jacxxx:
--> In principle - and especially with boxed attachment viewing - the pic could stop loading after sending at most 0.3 MB necessary and sufficient information, corresponding to a theoretical receiving time of less than 2 s, a huge improvement!
That's completely out of our scope. You can always zoom in the image after it has loaded, and cutting out quality would surely be a bad decision for everyone (also this is one of the things I hate about Facebook, their stupid "compression" which just cuts out image quality every time you upload a picture). Also to demonstrate how this is completely out of our scope, I'll list where/when your "loading optimization" could be applied:
1. Compress the image when users upload the file. Which would be a complete absurd to all those whom have always enjoyed LAH's high-quality material.
2. When you're loading the image, detect if the loading is taking too long and switch to a "slow connection"-optimized mode. Which is completely unnecessary*.
*Unnecessary not only because we will not generate extra server stress just for people that may be viewing images with 28kbps modems, but mostly because if you wish to sacrifice quality for speed you can always use one of those plugins, erm, I really don't remember the name of any of them as I haven't used one since literally the 90's, but there should be some of those image-loading optimization plugins around still. I remember one that had many options of quality, in the fastest mode it'd render all images in black and white - those 1mb pics would render in a split second with my old 56kbps modem!
I'm not sure whether those plugins are better nowadays due to improvement over time or if they simply don't exist any more due to the low demand. Anyway, Opera has the Opera Turbo, I can't find any other related tool but you may have better luck than me.

jacxxx:
--> It would be very nice when the previous pic would not disappear until the next pic shows up. In that case I can hit the right arrow as soon as a new pic shows up and enjoy it while the next one is loading (or till the end of time when it is the last pic of the page Laughing).
Even though I do have to agree slightly with this one, this behaviour is bound by the core of the current image viewing plugin, and it is not enough of a reason to swap out the plugin completely.

ps. I'd have replied to this earlier but our tasks management system currently indicates that it is Sat's turn for the "Reply to jacxxx nonsense" role, anyway he seemed a little busy today so I've replied instead.

Also don't forget that your feedback is very important to us and will be taken into consideration. Completely unrelated pic.

But seriously man, if you'd like to suggest something that could actually be implemented, make sure that:
A. It benefits the vast majority of users without (or with extremely few) drawbacks; OR
B. It benefits a good part of the users without drawbacks and does not affect the other groups of users;

You know those are the very minimum reqs and anything that doesn't fit in it won't even be considered.
The "image stays on screen until next has loaded" suggestion is something that can (perhaps) be considered, but is not viable at the moment.
Now when a suggestion only benefits an extremely small group of problematic users, odds are nothing will be done or even considered, as you probably already know.


_________________
My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.



There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art.
Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:22 am Profile PM MSN Skype
Sat
Star Angel
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Post Quote
Note: Due to additional checks and php passthrough, performance with LAH attachment may vastly differ from directly displaying files.

Also, no matter how much code there is, we cannot make your connection faster than it is.
Optimisation would only destroy the quality for most of our user.
As an example, take a look at the average user resolution on LAH:


Most users use higher resolutions, killing the image quality would be bad for the majority of
users.

We might turn on mod_pagespeed if we deem it safe to use, though.


_________________

Some people say, universe is a Star Ocean!
Latest LAH Blog post: In need of a cleanup from 29th June

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Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:19 pm Profile PM WWW Skype
ult_combo
Matrix Angel
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Post Quote
Sat:
Note: Due to additional checks and php passthrough, performance with LAH attachment may vastly differ from directly displaying files.
Not only that, the PHP passthrough also completely kills the image caching for virtually all browsers.


_________________
My main MF acc was suspended, use other mirrors until I re-up it all to a new host.



There is no knowledge that is not power.
Our only limitations are those we set up in our own minds.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Measuring software productivity by lines of code is like measuring progress on an airplane by how much it weighs.
Programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art.
Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:26 pm Profile PM MSN Skype
jacxxx
Earth Angel
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Posts: 1231

Post Quote
ult_combo:
Sat:
Note: Due to additional checks and php passthrough, performance with LAH attachment may vastly differ from directly displaying files.
Not only that, the PHP passthrough also completely kills the image caching for virtually all browsers.
Nevertheless some applications seem to perform better than others, cf the last part of my previous post.
Sat:
... Optimisation would only destroy the quality for most of our user. ... Most users use higher resolutions, killing the image quality would be bad for the majority of users.
Thanks for the hard facts, Sat!
Of course I didn't want to destroy other users quality Sad I tried to suggest that it might be possible to send the quality that is optimal for each user, so that the 320x480 user gets about 320x480 in his box view even if the pic is 1.5 MB, the 1024x768 user gets about 1024x768 of this same pic, etcetera.
Sat:
... We might turn on mod_pagespeed if we deem it safe to use, though.
Question


_________________
My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by Arrancar85 In Love
Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:12 am Profile PM
Sat
Star Angel
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Posts: 7104

Post Quote
Considering the plugin you linked preloads images in the background, not to mention that these images go from 300 to 500 kb each, it is clear that you deem that plugin faster.

I am going to have to repeat myself here. The plugin does not matter. LAH has preloading disabled to save your bandwidth and prevent fake viewcounts, and all files are parsed through a php before being delivered to you, with various checks beforehand. No matter what plugin we use, it will not make your internet connection faster.


_________________

Some people say, universe is a Star Ocean!
Latest LAH Blog post: In need of a cleanup from 29th June

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Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:13 pm Profile PM WWW Skype
jacxxx
Earth Angel
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Post opera 12.10 Quote
Very probably it's opera's problem: in my new version 12.10 the left and right arrow don't have any effect anymore in the boxed attachment view. (I already had an opera problem in the previous opera version with pixiv. Multiple panels such as hxxp://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=29190587 can't be opened anymore by my latest opera versions). Chrome doesn't have these problems, but is slower than opera. What's your advice?

Sat:
Considering the plugin you linked preloads images in the background --> Embarassed I didn't know. But how do you know Question, not to mention that these images go from 300 to 500 kb each, it is clear that you deem that plugin faster.

I am going to have to repeat myself here. The plugin does not matter. LAH has preloading disabled to save your bandwidth and prevent fake viewcounts, and all files are parsed through a php before being delivered to you, with various checks beforehand. No matter what plugin we use, it will not make your internet connection faster.--> but you could take away the long break between two adjacent boxed views and signal the last one of the page Idea


_________________
My avatar shows the first encounter of Yuki in the Land of Eternal Snow. Yuki would become my favorite character in the on-going Mystics Saga by Arrancar85 In Love
Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:35 pm Profile PM
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